Where do I stand with a mis-sold used car?

"4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30" (4muddyfeet)
05/12/2015 at 16:01 • Filed to: None

A bit of backstory first!

As some of you know, I recently bought a Skoda Octavia vRS CR170 diesel from a BMW/Mini dealership. After purchasing the car a piece of exterior trim fell off and the air-con packed in, and under the 12 month BMW/Mini used car warranty, both items have been fixed with no quibble. I got the car back today.

After asking the tech to check out an engine issue for me, we took it for a drive and he stated, ‘These PD engines really have some wallop, don’t they?’

‘Oh this is the CR engine, I specifically made sure because the PD has issues with the DPF and turbo.’

‘Are you sure, when I plugged it in it registered as a PD lump.’

‘Er I’m only sure because that’s what the advert and spec sheet stated.’

‘Oh well I must have it wrong then.’

I continued that I’d be very disappointed if it is the PD because I’d specifically looked at only CR engines because of their increased reliability and newer tech. We checked the V5 registration, invoice and MOT sheets, but none of them specified CR or PD. We both tailed off and started talking Land Rovers instead.

When I got back from the dealership the first thing I did was find out the telltale physical signs of the PD vs CR engines, and found these images:

And here’s my engine bay:

OHMYGODITSAFUCKINGPD.jpg

And for reference, the advert:

Considering I was specifically looking for the CR engine over the PD, and the advert and salesman stated as such, but they’ve sold me a PD engined car instead, what is my next step?

I was planning to write a letter asking for them to either buy back the car at the price I paid, or to keep the vehicle and they refund Ł1000 (aiming for Ł500 minimum) to reflect market value of the PD engine over the CR and to offer a 24 month warranty specifically on the turbo and DPF system....??

I don’t know, please chime in with any other options, opinions or next steps.

DISCUSSION (30)

GTI Sprinks > 4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30
05/12/2015 at 16:14

I’d wager it’ll be a challenge to get your money back, that’s for sure. Be polite and very clear with them stating that you understand the engine difference, the technical challenges faced by each, and that as such you’d like to be compensated to make up the difference since this was purchased with an understanding of it being a “CR” referring to the common rail system as advertised.

4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 > GTI Sprinks
05/12/2015 at 16:26

It’s a tough one actually. I really like the car, but now in the knowledge of it being a PD, I feel like I’ll forever be waiting for the CEL to pop up or the turbo to start squealing. So if my outlook remains jaded for the entirety of ownership, it’s not really something I want to keep. Accompanying this will be (assumed) depreciation over the CR version due to the lower reliability. I can’t stress enough how much I didn’t want a PD, and would rather not shrug it off as an, ’Oh well, at least I got Łx compensation.’ I spent four months just finding this one :( If this becomes the only avenue then I’ll have to follow it, or maybe take the hit and sell privately.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > 4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30
05/12/2015 at 16:34

Never hurts to try. Make sure to go for the head honcho at the dealer though, you have a better chance of getting through to them. Be polite, but firm, and bring up as many niggles as you can.

A couple of years ago I made the mistake of making an assumption. I assumed because I had checked my insurance rates for a particular year of vehicle that those rates would be the same for the one I wanted, though it was a couple years newer, because it was the same generation and mechanically identical. Turned out I couldn't have afforded the rates. I called the Salesman I had dealt with, and they said they couldn't do anything that would help me. They would cancel the sale, but they would keep my deposit and I would be on the hook for advertising expenses. Fortunately for me, they had also made the mistake of listing it as haveing a 5.3 V8, where it really had a 4.8L. So I went over his head to the owner, and stated all the facts and my intended course of action (Liked the vehicle, met most of my criteria, but I checked the VIN and found it was a 4.8L. I was willing to accept the 4.8 rather than the 5.3 if everything else was OK, but due to the insurance cost I was no longer willing to accept the wrong engine when I had come there looking because they said they had the right one. Would take them to OMVIC over false advertising, our dealer regulator if they didn't back down. Also made it clear I didn't want to do this, and that everyone had been polite and friendly and that I had nothing agaist anyone, which may have helped.). I ended up getting my money back.

RockThrillz89 > 4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30
05/12/2015 at 16:35

I’d get legal counseling if you can afford it. Even if it’s just “hey, here’s what happened can I do anything about it.” Now I’m not saying cry havic let slip the lawyers of war, but at least be informed. Start nice, like you said, and if they aren’t willing to at least play nice back, then you can bring up your legal counsel in conversation. Because honestly, I don’t think that the differences are something a typical buyer would be expected to identify, but a dealer easily can. And in my non-lawyer opinion you could have a leg to stand on if push came to shove.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > 4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30
05/12/2015 at 16:35

I actually went through a very similar situation buying the Renault. They advertised the car as a 16v (which has Ł30 tax and 75hp) but after putting down my deposit I found out it was actually an 8v (Ł110 tax and 60hp). I kicked up a fuss and they said they’d refund my deposit if requested due to the misrepresentation but in the end the car was cheap even for an 8v and they offered me a discount if I bought it anyway.

I’m pretty sure you should at least be compensated for this like I was, or be allowed to return the vehicle. Your situation is a little different since you have long term maintenance risks (if anything my 8v is hardier than the 16) so I’d push to return it and get what you were looking for.

Funny how we had such similar issues.

4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer
05/12/2015 at 16:39

So in your experience it’s certainly worth a punt. So far the buying and repair experience from BMW/Mini has been excellent, and I hope that that may actually be to my advantage. Thanks.

4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 > RockThrillz89
05/12/2015 at 16:50

I can and I will, if my first letter is rejected or no suitable alternative is arranged (I’d swap for a 330d touring!). To be absolutely honest, I wouldn’t have realised it wasn’t a CR until either the DPF flared up, or I happened across the above images by chance. The only item on the car that determines what engine it has (aside from the engine’s physical attributes) is a small sticker in the spare wheel well under the floor which give the engine code. Madness. I am absolutely positive that if it hadn’t been for the tech (who used to work for VW) mentioning it, it would have gone unnoticed for a quite a long time. A ‘regular’ consumer would be completely non the wiser, but then they also probably wouldn’t need to differentiate between the engines.

4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell.
05/12/2015 at 16:54

Tyne and Wear dealerships, the bastards! I am hoping to return it as I really don’t want the overhanging rotten apple of a premature turbo failure or DPF replacement on the horizon. Neither is cheap and I really can’t be arsed. I sort of wishing I’d done a bit more research into distinguishing between the engine types, and nit trusting the dealerships word on the matter, especially when it’s not a Skoda dealer.

RockThrillz89 > 4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30
05/12/2015 at 17:05

At least you caught it pretty early, though I feel bad for you for having to go through this regardless. That’s only going to work in your favor. And best of luck to you.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > 4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30
05/12/2015 at 17:11

Mine was County Durham so it’s just car dealerships in general haha. To be fair they apologised and were really friendly about my situation.

I agree, my Fiat had turbo issues and it’s the absolute worst. I replaced the turbo, all the oil feed pipes, checked the wastegate settings, new air filter and oil, cleaned everything I could get hold of. A few hundred miles later it’s dead again... It was also an absolute bastard of a job, took me 3 days. Our Laguna’s turbo is starting to leak oil too, which I’m not looking forward to. I had to climb into the engine bay just to inspect it. If they’re known to have turbo issues I’d really suggest you get rid, that dreaded whine and power drop is my worst nightmare after that Fiat. There’s a reason I replaced it with a car so simple it’s basically a big lego set in comparison.

Plus that Fiat only has 70k on it.

Mine was a main Renault dealer and they still got it wrong haha, the mechanic bet me I was wrong before he confirmed I was right. I should have collected on that bet. One of a few times I’ve gotten something right that a mechanic didn’t.

4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 > RockThrillz89
05/12/2015 at 17:12

Thanks man. I appreciate it.

4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell.
05/12/2015 at 17:15

The turbo issue is directly linked with the DPF. All the chatter on the Skoda forums seem to point towards increased back pressure from a clogged or partially clogged DPF, which in turn leads to a stressed out turbo. I dunno, but the DPF fault is certainly well documented. It was a total afterthought on the car.

Also, why did you have to say 70k?! That’s exactly what the Skoda has... :(

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > 4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30
05/12/2015 at 17:21

The Fiat didn’t have a DPF so I have no idea what was causing the failure. The only thing I can think of is bad oil feed, which would mean the oil galleys in the engine were fucked, since the oil feed pipes were fine. I wasn’t about to take on an engine rebuild so I got rid of the thing.

From everything I’ve read DPFs are a nightmare on a lot of cars, never worked on a car with one though so I don’t know a huge amount about them. Can replacing them regularly like a service item save the turbo? I know that’s an expensive job, but a turbo swap at a dealer could run Ł1’000 easily. Quote for the tiny turbo on the Fiat was Ł750.

Sorry haha, I’m sure even with known issues that Skoda will survive better than my heap did.

4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell.
05/12/2015 at 17:36

You can regen a DPF by getting the getting the exhaust up to a temperature of between 500 and 800°, at which point the particulates combust and exhaust through the system. This is normally done by taking it along a motorway in 4th at 70mph+. I did this up the military road when I got the car for good measure, but it needs to be sustained for a good 30 minutes, and doing that even once every couple of months will become tiresome, I’m sure. RE replacement; it can be done, but runs upwards of Ł400 through dealership, and turbos clock Ł1k for a new one, Ł800ish for a refurbished unit. Service items they are not! I always rated the little diesels in the Fiats highly, and it’s a real shame that yours popped, especially so early.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > 4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30
05/12/2015 at 17:41

So basically a good old italian tune up, it would get irritating after a while doing that though. That’s pretty crazy price wise, must be hard to access/ remove.

The 1.3 multijet diesels seem to have known issues eating turbos, they use them in Corsas too and heard a few horror stories about them there. Shame really I liked that car when it actually worked.

Personally I’d try my best to return the car, the anxiety over ownership of a car with known issues (I know this well) gets to you every time you drive the thing. Hope it gets sorted out for you.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > 4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30
05/12/2015 at 17:56

If you were in Michigan, I’d say “Better call Steve Lehto”.

But since you aren’t there, I suggest talking to the dealer first. There’s a chance it was an honest mistake... a small chance.

If they don’t want to do anything for you, then I suggest researching your local laws and legal cases and then decide what to do.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > 4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30
05/12/2015 at 18:00

“and I really can’t be arsed.”

LOL... I love British slang...

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell.
05/12/2015 at 18:04

“From everything I’ve read DPFs are a nightmare on a lot of cars,”

I’ve read that Mazda has had problems with them too with the Skyactive diesels they started selling in Australia. The issue is bad enough that it caused Mazda to hold off releasing the engine in other markets like North America.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly
05/12/2015 at 19:24

Diesels are getting so complex now a lot of issues seem to be cropping up.

pip bip - choose Corrour > 4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30
05/13/2015 at 05:00

before delivery should have got the VIN and rang a skoda dealer to make sure.

easy to say in hindsight i know , but considering a car is a decent purchase these days , it pays to check.

did you pay cash or finance?

if finance maybe you should approach them?

Svend > 4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30
05/13/2015 at 05:00

First I’d lodge a complaint and seek address from the dealership, then I’d arrange an appointment with the Citizens Advice Bureau where the’d give you a list and procedure to follow, alternatively take it to Trading Standards who will pursue it as a misrepresentation of goods and will either seek a buy back (invariably minus a nominal amount for the amount of time you had the car) or some form of extended guarantee either on the vehicle or for the specified parts that are of issue.

4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 > pip bip - choose Corrour
05/13/2015 at 05:02

Cash, via debit card. Does that limit my comeback?

pip bip - choose Corrour > 4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30
05/13/2015 at 05:04

possibly not , but check with your local office of fair trading or whatever they are in the UK.

GTI Sprinks > 4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30
05/13/2015 at 07:53

totally understandable. I get that feeling, especially after purchasing the car and reading all about it, and came to the conclusion that the CRs (my MY2010 jetta tdi w/ 2.0 CR for example) in north america tend to do poorly because of the diesel quality being lower and causing premature high pressure fuel pump failure.
As for fear of constant CEL, preventative maintenance can go a long way. i know tdiclub.com has information and a slew of gurus for PD engines that post regularly if you ever need help. Not sure if there is a euro equivalent of sorts.

Schaefft > 4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30
05/13/2015 at 11:04

Wow, I am sorry to hear you ended up with a car you didn’t plan to buy. I would definitely try to contact the dealer and see if you can solve the issue with them. Should they take it back and give you a refund, get an E39 530d next (even though I highly recommend to get a 530i instead). For the money you spent on the Skoda, you should be able to get a very nice last year m-sport with a manual, if you can find one. Or get a M5! :D

4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 > Schaefft
05/13/2015 at 11:57

That is possibly the worst advice in this whole thread.. I need MPG’s and kleine taxes man!

Schaefft > 4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30
05/13/2015 at 20:49

4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 > Schaefft
05/13/2015 at 21:10

Noooooooooo don’t sway me!

Schaefft > 4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30
05/14/2015 at 07:46

How many miles would drive it per year? People often go for a diesel because the only thing they are looking at are MPGs, often ignoring the fact that maintenance/repairs as the well as the price of the car are often significantly higher (a turbo/high pressure injectors can’t break if its not there). Diesel is more expensive in the UK than petrol, Im not sure about taxes but those are usually higher as well. In the end you would have to drive the car for an unrealistically long period to save any noteworthy amount of cash.

4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 > Schaefft
05/14/2015 at 08:44

Taxes tend to be lower as modern diesels release less CO2 g/km than petrol vehicles with a similar size/power engine. Skoda is Ł180 p/a, a BMW 325 tourer is Ł290 p/a. Tied to a lower insurance band, I’m pretty sure I’m quids in. My mileage will be around 6-8k a year, of which the majority will be mid to long distance.

My requirements on buying this car were:

Big estate, high MPG, low road tax, good reliability.